Anti-gay bill diversionary- Latigo

A recent car accident has not quieted opposition leader Morris Latigo, who sat down recently with The Independent’s Ariel Rubin for a discussion about problems inherent in the ‘Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009” and his own anxieties and hopes for 2011.

Prof. Ogenga Latigo What were your thoughts when you first heard about the ‘Anti Homosexuality Bill 2009’ being tabled in Parliament?

Hon. Bahati had mentioned he had prepared something like that. I was wondering, what are we fundamentally trying to address? Is it homosexuality per se? If this was the question, do we just plunge into a legislative process or do we first go and look at why it is happening, what the trends are, and what are the projections. Once we know the elements of what is going on, then we can talk in terms of programmes we can put in place to address the challenge. Therefore knowing that that kind of study has not formed the basis of this legislation, I have a broad objection.

With the social transformation that Uganda is undergoing, so many Ugandans live in the Diaspora, so many foreigners now living here, the economy is liberalising, social attitudes are liberalising; is homosexuality an issue that you can stop with legislation?

This bill is something Dr Sylvia Tamale already talked about. We have adequate laws that will deal with homosexuality in such a way that it doesn’t become a ‘public menace’ if you want to call it that. Knowing what has been happening, you would be hard-pressed to point out an individual in the streets of Kampala to say ‘that is a homosexual’, because they don’t portray it. They know the law will get them. Now if they don’t portray it, then what is your new law going to do, that the existing law doesn’t cover already? Then some of the proposed penalties are absolutely outrageous. Death penalty! Bahati is supposed to be a religious man and Jesus says do not judge, so that you will not be judged. And you declare homosexuality a mortal sin, and that a human life deserves to be taken. It is absurd.Those behind this law do not understand anything about homosexuality.

Then of course there is the element that Andrew Mwenda wrote about. What is the science of homosexuality? Is it a biological phenomenon? And if it is the dormant gene, which is the matter in sexually reproducing organisms, you get homosexuality in cattle, in chickens, in everything. If it is the genetic phenomenon arising from the genetic or social constitution of a person, do you address it with death? Or do you address it by addressing the root cause?

Pastor Martin Ssempa, Bahati and Nsaba Buturo all talk about how homosexuality almost as a form of neo-imperialism. They claim it is a decadent thing that comes from the West and thus cannot be tolerated in African society.
That is not true. I knew about homosexuality long before this moral decadence that has followed the NRM. If you agree to steal, to an extent that you allow corruption, open theft of public goods and money to be the norm, then who are you to condemn those who are not even harming society? You have not condemned and acted on those who are actually physically harming society. Just think about how many people have been punished because the government funds were stolen. Think about how much health funds could have done to our people! How much the education funds could have done to our people! Compare that to those who by genetic inclination, and I believe because I am a scientist, engage in homosexuality.

How do you think this bill, if it is passed, will become a tool for intimidation especially before the 2011 elections?

It is a very good bill in terms of opening up possibilities for mischief in Ugandan politics. It is just wrong to pass legislation that is not founded on solid facts and clear objectives. That is the problem with this bill. I think that this debate that has come out in the media must be expanded so that the anxiety and excitement about this bill is killed and the rationale becomes stronger.

Right now in Parliament, are things being dealt with rationally or it is it more hyper and emotionally-charged?

Bills like this go to a committee, and I plan to go before the committee and present my case to them and to tell them that this is something that is not right. The country doesn’t need it at this stage. For example you cannot legislate that there will be no smoking in this country. But you can say you cannot smoke in public and by pushing those away where you cannot smoke. You confine smoking to an area where society is not harmed to allow those who are smokers to enjoy their right to smoke. It is a free choice.

Bahati said that if homosexuality were legalised and gay marriage were allowed, then “our moral fiber will be torn down” and “society would be in chaos”. But this happens in countries like Canada and Denmark, and society has not broken down, quite to the contrary. Given the fears of an unsustainable population increase in Uganda, with estimates that in 21 years the population of this country will double, why is the fear so pervasive that society will break down and people won’t have any more children?

I give this example of the Land Amendment Act, it’s just inflatable that President Museveni only relies on the economy. This bill is to protect bona fide occupants, to show economic problems that mean a person who has a quarter of an acre around Kampala can no longer survive on it. And that those who have money will look for land to invest. You cannot stop that.

So it is just absurd that you know the objective of this Land Act is about making it look like there’s a new agenda that the president can rally the Buganda around him. Because he tried poverty and it didn’t work. Then he says okay, I know the majority of the Baganda are bona fide occupants, and so if I create a war about land and I’m on their side, they will be on my side on election day. We really need to tell this country that this is a deceit, there is no war.

How does this fit into the broader ways in which government has handled other social difficulties?

Well you know I could say that the challenges that we are faced with since the NRM came to power comes from the contradiction that follows the development path that they have chosen. If you liberalise, know that you are not just liberalising the economy, you are liberalising everything and there are consequences. So if you pursue a free market system, people will begin to believe they have a right to their freedom and your challenge therefore is to proactively map out what the consequences of that freedom for our society will be. A proactive government would then put in place a campaign program, an action program, and a policy framework to address the potential consequences. Now when you do that, the benefit of liberalization can then be maximally used to start development and change society. But when you take on one aspect of it and damn the consequences, then the consequences will come to damn you.

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written by brian, December 16, 2009

Bravo, it is refreshing to see that we have independent minded politicians who can look as issues and judge according to facts and the good of society in general not just a narrow base. As has been said a society can rightly be judged by how it treats its weakest members. What we need is to focus our real energies an real issues not some foreign inspired Salem witch hunt or Mc Carthyism looking for reds under the bed. As we saw in our neighboring Rwanda people can be made to believe all sorts of 'threats' to the point they start killing those they lived amongst for years. Let the American fundamentalists who paid for this bill sort out their own country and not be the real foreigners interfering in Uganda's affairs, Bravo again Honorable, you deserve the title

Rebuke Brian
written by Maazi N.C. Okezue-Umeh, December 17, 2009

Brian, the issue of homosexual propagation in Uganda has got nothing to do with Salem witch burning and McCarthyism which occurred in your country (I am assuming you an American gay sex propagandist). Your strategy of distortion, defamation and hectoring will not intimidate Uganda in the slightest. Please learn to live with the fact that Uganda will never appear in any tourist guide booklet as one of the exotic nations where Western gays are free to have sex with Africans. The anti-homosexuality bill will pass in one form or another, regardless of your efforts and that of the "Gay Liberation Army of Europe and America". My advice is for you to arrange one-way tickets for your Ugandan gay agents to come over to San Francisco where Gay Sex is seen as "normal"

Rebuke Brian (2)
written by Maazi N.C. Okezue-Umeh, December 17, 2009

And one more thing, Brian :
Morris Latigo's opinion is not representative of Ugandan peoples' view on this issue. So before you pop any champagne bottles with your gay pals back in the United States, please remember that.

-2

Hon.Latigo, what has happened to you?
written by Kankaka Edward Nelson, December 17, 2009

Mr. Ogenga Latigo,
Have you forgotten that this bill seeks to protect those who are being molested and de-humanized by affluent criminals who hide under so-called sexual minorities? Really, if u are a parent who is open with your children, so should know better how fast we need this bill passed!!
Uganda is facing a moral mayhem. We fear for the lives and safety of our children.
Do not be undressed of your rightful integrity due to pressure from the west. Most of those countries are now morally failed states who want to plunge us into a disatrous destiny.
As we develop, let us not leave back common sense, natural law, social order, and self-evident morality.
Let's legalize the bill now!!!!

-3

Imposible
written by Jude, December 17, 2009

I wish our people could use the same energy they are using to support this bill to fight corruption. It is easy to pass the bill into an act if Museveni wishes but will he implement it? Currently do we know these homos? don't we have a law in place but have we ever seen any gay in the courts of law in Uganda. Can we estimate their influence in society. By passing this bill are we not inviting the promoters of gay to concentrate on Uganda and to use money to ensure that the gay activities are promoted. The ruling party knows how money can promote dirty deals such as vote rigging. Can any of our leaders tell us how many people played the normal sex in Uganda last night?

The least of Uganda's social problems
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, December 17, 2009

@Jude, homosexuality should be the least of Uganda's many social problems, except in cases of homosexual rape (not unlike heterosexual rape), especially, but not only, in Uganda prisons where it is rampant (as admitted by Prisons Chief, Dr Byabashaija). If there's always a law that makes "sodomy" a crime, why hasn't it been enforced there to protect vulnerable prisoners, some of them very young? Or is this whole sage being used to whip up some moral capital lost as a result of megacorruption deals in high places?

Hon latigo wait for whts at your door!
written by MABO, December 17, 2009

Its good Hon latigo has put his mind in writting. This means if any gay would corner the honourable & "rape" him or his son/daughter thats when he will realise the need of a law to curb & dter the gays. If horses were wishes i would want to see the Hon officiating at the wedding of his gay son/daughter. And may hear his comment/confessions after being raped by a gay. Am just requesting him to inform us where his kids are. So tht "onely / searching" gays can know where to find a tolerant "father in law' like Hon Latigo! For God & my country

-3

Rebuke Brian!
written by Brian, December 17, 2009

Actually I am not an American I live right here in Kampala, unlike the rightwing 'Christians' who funded this Bill in their moral crusade. My concern about this bill is that it will become a Blackmailers charter. Already with existing laws we recently had so called Preachers accusing other preachers of sodomy. Even the CID had to get involved to try to sort out what was fact and what was fiction. Imagine when this Vile Bill (the Canadian Prime Ministers phrase to HE at CHOGUM not mine) is in place anybody can report an enemy a competitor or somebody you just dont like. This is taking us back to Amin. NOBODY gay, straight ,homosexual,heterosexual, asexual, celebrate nobody will be safe from accusation.

cont
written by Brian, December 17, 2009

As many commentators have pointed out the REAL threat to our children is from Sugar Daddies having 'STRAIGHT' sex with our Daughters. Not some imaginary 'foreigners' 'introducing' gay sex to innocent Ugandans. I think the white missionaries found plenty of homosexuality when they reached Mengo for the first time, read the accounts, was it not when the same white fathers encouraged the Kabakas pages to say NO that they were dispatched to be killed and become the Uganda martyrs, so much for new colonial practices

Finally
written by Brian, December 17, 2009

Just consider why the aids commission see the need to erect huge billboards outside the gates of Makerere, Nakawa MUBS, Kampala International University etc showing "Sugar Daddies' well those cheering this Bill through should seriously consider that Moral Crusaders will if passed see this as their FIRST victory. So what will be next, Sugar Daddies, Adulterers, Polygamists, if you think they will stop with gays you are fools, Good Luck

-1

Brian...Latigo...Mwanga (part 1)
written by Adok Too, December 17, 2009

You raise an important point that the proposed law may be used as a tool for "smearing" and "witch hunting". Have you considered that Mwanga may have been a victim of smearing? It strikes me that homosexuality came to issue when Mwanga began favouring the Arab traders against the British. I submt that the British realsing the conservative nature of Africans sought to "smear" Mwanga with the goal of shaking the king's authority over his subjects. The accusations of "bad manners" against Mwanga were made by the likes of Ham Mukasa...a beneficiary of the colonialists. The British themselves state that Mwanga had "learnt" his habits from the Arabs....any one see a connection?
Uganda is a country of minorities of differing sizes. We should be vigilant against any laws or social conven

Brian ...Latigo...Mwanga(part 2)
written by Adok Too, December 17, 2009

However being vigilant does not mean we should discard the values that make us particularly Ugandan. Is homosexuality something imported..."learnt from the Arabs" as the Colonialists charged Mwanga or through the interchange of global culture? Perhaps we should first ask fellow Ugandans to look within their communities. Words are a testament. If a word does not exist then a thing does not exist. If cannot be expressed in language then it is yet to exist in consciousness. So I ask...can the various nationalities within Uganda confirm whether there is a word that translates as "homosexual"? The British called it "bad manners" to express it to the Baganda. What did the Baganda call it before the British, What do the Acholi, Iteso, Yoro, Ankole?!!

What words in our local language for homosexuality?
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, December 18, 2009

@Adoko Too - raises a valid question: If homosexuality existed. What were the names for it in our local languages? Mwenda (in an article on this subject) cited Dr Mwene Mushanga as a scholar who has written that homosexuality was practised among the aristocratics in the Nkore kingdom. Baganda refer to it as "ebisiyaga" (although that is a little known word). But on words: what are the words in our local languages for sex or sexual organs? The ones used are either euphemism or considered too vile to be used in public. There was that secrecy about matters of sex and that might explain the dearth of words. Today, if you were teaching school kids about sex, what vernacular words would you use?

...
written by Brian, December 18, 2009

Adoko Too and Rev. Amos thank you for your thoughtful additions now I think we may have a debate and really look at these issues. I also agree that a smear may have been part of the colonialists plan, the British did perfect the policy of divide and rule, even Adolf Hitler marveled how the British managed to rule India with so few of their own there. Can I throw a few more aspects into the debate.

words etc...
written by Adok Too, December 18, 2009

If the aristrocrats of Nkore practiced homosexuality, in what form was it manifested? Was it open male or female relationships? Or is this another instance were allegations were made about Nkore's ruling class by those who understood that such allegations would inherently shock and appall whoever heard them and thereby weaken the aristrocrat's authority? "Dirty Gossip" can ruin relationships...even within families....if blood is thicker than water; then mud is thicker than blood! The new law risks creating a fractious atmosphere where "dirty gossip" is used to destroy people's lives.

words etc...continued
written by Adok Too, December 18, 2009

The proposed law hinges on- 1. That homosexuality is "against nature" and 2. It is "un-African." The first point is still under debate. Geneticists have not conclusively settled the argument. The question whether it is "un-African" is at the core of my original question whether the nationalities within Uganda have words that express the notion of homosexuality...in the same way as there is a word for wife or husband in each village and tongue across the country. Rev Kasibante provides us with a Kiganda word but says it is a little known word. What is the literal translation of the word...does it express "homosexual" or is it the familiar type of insult for men who are considered "unmanly"? Without the African word, it may not be African!

words...continued
written by Adok Too, December 18, 2009

Notwithstanding all I've said above....the proposed bill will make a repugnant law. We are a country of various sized minorities. We should be vigilant against laws that seek to oppress any particular group amongst us. This is not to say I advocate homosexuality. A balance should be found between oppressing and protecting. However if a law dein's to protect the vulnerable -then it should not fall on its own logic - girls prey to sugar daddies are vulnerable, women forced into prostitution are vulnerable as are those in abusive domestic relationships...is there a legislator drafting a draconian bill to "protect" them?

...
written by Brian, December 18, 2009

yesterday a 54 year old American was released from prison after serving 35 years for raping a 9 year old boy when he was 19. However new DNA tests now prove that he was not the rapist. Sex with a minor and rape of a minor is a heinous crime that deserves severe punishment. However if this individual had been sentenced under the proposed bill he would not have seen his 20th birthday, and never would his innocence been established. So when 'Christians' propose killing in the name of justice they should really look at their own conscience and faith, as Jesus said let you with no sin cast the first stone. By the way the commandments do say 'Thou shalt not kill' unless there is fine print under 'unless he is gay' then i go bu Gods word.

Catholics
written by brian, December 19, 2009

If I may add just another point. How is the Catholic Church to react to this bill. Some Bishops have even supported it, even though the Catholic Church teaches that Homosexuality is not a sin only the sexual act! So lets imagine a 21 year old gay catholic confessing to his priest his 'Sin' to get absolution. The priest is now in posession of information relating to a serious 'crime; what is he to do, go to the police and report the 'gay activity' and break his vows to god or remain silent and become a criminal? What a dilema. Mind you given the churches appalling record of child sex abuse hundreds or priests would have been hung under a similar law if it was enacted in the USA and Europe. Jesus wept!

Catholic Church and Church of Uganda
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, December 21, 2009

@Brian - on the Anglican side, the Lambeth Conference of 1998, whose resolutions on homosexuality the Church of Uganda adheres to as the orthodox and biblical tradition also took the same line as the Catholic Church. It denounced homophobia and encouraged acceptance of people with a homosexual "orientation", only adding that they should remain "chaste" (abstain from sexual acts). The current wholesale attack on homosexuals simply for being so would therefore be misplaced and would run counter to the pastoral requirements of the Church of Uganda. Rowan Williams has rightly said that the Bill would "turn pastors into informers".

Of authentic African culture
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, December 21, 2009

I have read arguments on African culture & practices, with some comments being emphatic about what is or is not African. In my opinion, we need to proceed by method of enquiry/research. We do not have adequate knowledge of African cultural practices prior to Western/Christian or Arab/Muslim incursions into Africa. Some portraits of "African culture" are idyllic. In African culture(s), as in other cultures, some things were on the surface; others were hidden. Arabs may or may not have introduced homosexual practice to the Kabaka's court. Christian missionaries might have wanted to slight them when they learnt of the presence of a practice that they loathed. Then again (read next part)

Of authentic African culture
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, December 21, 2009

And African culture is not perfect simply for being African. Nor does culture remain static. Culture may even be contradictory or treat certain people as oddities: left-handed people, short people, Albinos, etc.
Christian (missionary) historiography tended to put homosexuality at the centre of the Uganda martyrdom narrative. But Professor Semakula Kiwanuka assigns it a minor role (see his books "A History of Buganda" and "Background to the Martyrs", where he cites rivalry between Christian youth and older Ganda chiefs (represented by Katikkiro Mukasa); Mwanga's genuine fear that Christian converts might be used by colonial agents; and of course Mwanga's own fickle (unpredictable) behaviour, among others.

...
written by Sam , December 21, 2009

I don’t subscribe to this notion that Gay or lesbians “Homosexual People” are the cause of Uganda moral mayhem. Knowing the Uganda political histories of victimizations, the general public needs to be warier of this anti gay bill. Once, it is enacted into law, it will be unleashed not only on to the Gay and Lesbian people “Homosexual People”, but to put away political opponent and the regime critics. Since, previous charges such as alleged rape, terrorisms, treason charges and incitement of public did not do a fine job. Thanks Brian, for mentioning the Uganda little kept secret “ the homosexuality in the Kabaka Mwanga II Court in 1886”.

Opposition in Uganda has missed it.
written by Simon, December 21, 2009

I have followed with interest the views of the majority of Opposition especially FDC on Homosexuality,Anne Mugisha and now Latigo seem to have missed it completly and i want to tell them that im seriousely disapointed and reconsidering my allegience to FDC b'se of their surport to homosexuality.
This is a private member's bill by Bahati and not the governmet or the president. Laws every where encourage good and discourage bad and we need this bill to fill the gaps the penol code has about this act of homosexuality,so we can properly discourage it in our country. FDC wake up!!!

Opposition in Uganda has missed it.
written by Brian, December 21, 2009

Simon, perhaps it is you who has missed the point. If say 5% of Ugandans are Gay (a low % by international surveys) them maybe there are over a million gays in Uganda. Now with that as a voting block especially in the Urban areas, perhaps the same fickle politicians who cannot stand up to the bombast of this bill may actually be canvassing the 'pink' vote in 2011. Next election will see the 'Obama' Yes we can effect twitter, messaging, replacing loudspeakers for a media savvy generation, and yes a good number of Gays amongst them as well. So perhaps the opposition are actually being both realistic and politically astute. Perhaps its the backers who are the 'Vocal Minority' just as they were in last years Presidential and Congress elections in the USA.

Laws every where encourage good and discourage bad and we need this bill to fill the gaps the penol code has about this act of homosexuality,so we can properly discourage it in our country.
written by Brian, December 21, 2009

Simon, not sure where you formed this view. But you should probably add, 'in my/our opinion' this is a very narrow end exclusive view. The principal problem with your thesis is you can remove the word 'homosexuality' and replace it with Adulterer, Polygamist, Alcoholic, Tutsi, Jew in fact anybody you do not like or disagree with. This is why this bill is so repugnant to any rational person. It simply discriminates and more dangerously it sets a template for intolerance.

cont.
written by Brian, December 21, 2009

The real question is WHO IS NEXT. This is how previous regimes sowed the seed of their own destruction. There are no gaps in the present laws of Uganda. The real gaps are in education and understanding. I often wonder it its Uganda's landlocked geographical status that has also resulted in a landlocked mentality as well. I repeat again it is the Sugar Daddies raping our daughters that should have the zelots beating down the gates of parliament, but perhaps that might raise further dilemmas in the august house!

Stamp out corruption if you want to stamp out homosexuality
written by Mo, January 06, 2010

I do not support homosexuality in any form. However, I wonder whether the passing of the current bill will effectively remove homosexuality form Uganda. I would advise Hon. Bhatti to draft a tough bill on corruption, which should be endorsed and passed by parliament before the homosexuality bill. The reason is that, curruption is so cronic in Uganda that the promoters of homosexuality do anything to bribe the very same people who have drafted, voted for and passed the homosexuality law.